Lately I've started to be worried about church and God and stuff. I'm worried that I have closed myself in too much with my religion- that really, the idea of God is much broader than I like to think. What I mean by this is all the rules that we follow. I understand why it is that we don't have a worship band, and I support my church on that decision, but sometimes it bothers me that I would be uncomforatable letting go before God, really worshiping Him to the reckless abandon of other people's opinions. And I think about gospel chiors and churches that are big on the "Amens" and "Praise the Lords," and how I've always said that kind of thing just fed the emotions. But now I'm starting to think that maybe emotions are a big part of worship, and maybe my faith would be stronger if I could claim that kind of vivid interaction with God on a weekly basis.
I know people will say that you should be able to worship God just as vividly during the dryest hymn without any accompanyment whatsoever, but I am starting to doubt that this is true. Certain things stir up our emotions- we were created that way. And if a moving piece of music combined with powerful lyrics (throw out the repetative, me-centered praise songs, please) could help to break through the clouds that always seem to exist between God and I, then maybe that's a good thing.
Sure, the emotions will wear off. But hopefully the relationship you develop with God during those intimate, emotionally charged moments would stay the same. Just like human relationships.
But this is getting more technical than I intended it too- really, I'm just craving the oporotunity to worship God with everything in me, my body and my voice and my heart as well as my mind. Come to think of it the same concept applies to the idea of God speaking to individuals or even just moving in their hearts in ways that are too esoterical to pin down in precise terms. I don't exactly think God speaks to us anymore in actual voices or that he gives people the ability to prophesy (wow, I can NOT figure out how to spell that), but maybe He does work more personally and mysteriously than I am sometimes willing to allow for. I don't like that I've closed my mind to the possibility that God could ever give me a strong feeling that I need to do this or talk to someone or whatever it is. Of course I'm walking a very fine line here, and I know that.
Moving on, I worry a lot about the different faces different people put on God. Sometimes talking with other people even in my own church I realize that the God they pray to has a totally different personality than the God I pray to. It's somewhat comforting to realize that God is a complex being with many, many different sides to Him, and even when I have only learned to recognize or worship one or two sides of him, He is still faithfull to deal with me according to all the other sides. He doesn't cut me off to say, "that's not really me you're talking to, stop making up some idea of me in your head that doesn't exist." He accepts my praise and worship, even if I'm only grasping at one corner of his existance. Which is amazing, because if someone understood me so incompletely I would feel very frusterated with their attempts to admire or love me.
Part of the problem might be that God can exist in these duplicities that we humans can't comprehend- He can be terrifying and gentle all in one instant, just as he can die for the sinners who in other passages he claims to abhor. We can only focus on one of these attributes at a time, when really they only make sense as a condusive whole.
I do think it's really dangerous to become too convinced that I know what God is like, instead of keeping and open mind and trying to learn more about him all the time. That's the part that bothers me, in myself as well as in others.
On a slightly more personal level, I have been feeling really alone lately. Even though I'm surrounded by people all the time, I'm never quite a part of it the way I used to be. I keep floating back in my mind to all these groups that I've been a part of that were the world to me, starting with the Camp Hopies, and then my co-op friends, and then the Boyds, and then the Mississippi group last year. And now everyone is splintered and being pulled in different dirrections. People feel sorry for me a lot lately and try to talk to me to make me feel better, but what I really want is one person that I can always count on to be there no matter what. Someone that I can email sixty times a week and chat online all the time and call on the phone and hang out with after school. What I really want, I suppose, is a husband- but I'm not anywhere near ready for that. I've almost always had one person like that in my life, and now I find myself automatically sidling up to different people, testing out the waters to see if maybe this could be that person. But it never is.
And I think I know why. I think God is trying to teach me not just to be content in any situation, which I certainly am learning, but to go to HIM with my problems. I am terrible about this. My first reaction is to tell a friend, or post a blog, and if that doesn't work I'll eat a big bowl of ice cream or go get a mocha or flop down in front of the TV. I never believe that praying will actually help. It's always an after thought. But when I'm more or less alone like I am right now, I find myself driven to God in desperation- and I'm always shocked by how well it works. It's very faith-strengthening. And I'm learning, slowly, to go to Him as a FIRST reaction instead of waiting until there's no where else to go.
I am also learning that life is much more than relationships. I mean, there is only so much a friendship or a relationship can do for you. In the end of the day we're all kind of alone, we have to find our own ways of dealing with things and comming to rest with reality. We can only know one another to this very limited extent, even in marriage or the closest parent-child relationship in the world. Very interesting to someone like me who always thought relationships were the most important, deep and fufilling thing in the world.
I guess I'm trying to rival Kacy for blog post length today. But one more thing. I am SO confused about what to do with my life. I feel like I have to make a decision right now, but there are so many variables that could change any time. Things I want to accomplish:
1. Get my AA
2. Go to a university and learn more about music and litterature
3. Go to Africa and be a missionary
4. Go to New York and be a nanny
5. Be in some plays, preferably as a dancer and/or part of the chorus
6. Write a book
And I tend to think all of this has to happen before I get married. If I don't get married, I have no idea how I will occupy myself after all of this is done. If I do, I don't know how I'll satisfy myself with not "living my dreams" or whatever. So please pray that direction would come to me as I need it. Right now I'm pretty absolutely convinced that I need to finish my AA, which is looking like it's going to be another three quarters at least. (Yuck!!) So I keep reminding myself not to get restless, but to devote myself to the task God has given me for right now. After that, it's gonna be harder.
I hate that I'm such a late bloomer and I'm just now figuring out how to actually accomplish things. A lot of people have like all of those things done by the time they are my age.
Oh well. I gotta go fold t-shirts now. And then, off to chior to do some CHOREOGRAPHY!!
Monday, November 16, 2009
it seems like everywhere I go, the more I see the less I know
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wow, im surprised and happy im going to be the first comment on this one. i have many thoughts and many thoughts have me at this moment so i'll try to be short (which won't happen, but i'll try)
Church and Emotions... last sunday morning, i almost shed a tear reading the words and feeling the human stains that God decided to count as nought for some obscure reason called "love" none of us will ever fathom. I definitely agree that it feels like we cannot worship God the same with all kinds of music and dancing or none at all, but i feel like the main distinction is where are those emotions called from? If the swell of the chorus and the shake of voices throw you into singing the chorus more valiant than before and you feel like your worshiping better, it's like this external stimulus that feels sorta fake. At least to me. But when the presence of sin in our own lives comes up against a "double cure" of guilt and power, you realize the shear might and love and almost unreasonableness of Christ's saving death, and it does a work on you.. at least for me. Like you i don't support very many Christian bands and such because the stimulus is external and comes down to a feeling that bares no knowledge on it's wings. Oh yeah, i always ask, "is knowlegde present in this?" it's usually a good judge for just about anything.
I have had similar questions tho but to a different degree. So, with all my interest in "deep, theological" studies, I have had to ask, "Is this actually benefiting me? my relationship with Christ" my spiritual condition?" i wonder if this is actually helping me live my life better and more for Christ, and I've come to realize that I, personally, need to get back to just, daily serving God, reading the Bible, mortifying all that loverly sin, and not worry about some of the other deeper issues, as they do not change the game (right now- for me)... anyway just an aside.
And, for the record, I still believe that He actually doesn't ever reveal his will supernaturally anymore. Whether it be feelings, prophesies, impressions, or casing lots. But it's just an opinion that would take far to long to unpack, so i'll leave it at that. :)
The whole faces point, I assume you mean some pray to a more "forgiving" God and some pray to a more "omniscient" God. "We can only focus on one of these attributes at a time, when really they only make sense as a conducive whole." Ah, the glory of being 5 ft. tall and have a brain the size of a cantaloupe. We will never understand the Trinity, free will vs predestination, and the God-man Christ. Say hello to faith :) I really like that sentence and that thought, you all should sip on that cup of java for awhile. I know I will.
Being alone: me too. Your conclusion: me too.
My advice on your big life plans: Enjoy the small things.
mk, not to long eh? :)
Like, like, like on the thing about just daily serving God. I think that's SO important. Of course our theology shapes our behavior and the way we follow God, but that doesn't mean we can neglect the actual walk just for the talk.
About worship, I agree with what you're saying- but maybe we need to be careful not to dismis more charasmatic forms of worship just because we think the motives behind it might be fake. Because I'm sure a large portion of the people in that congregation really are worshiping in spirit and in truth- and knowledge- not just because the music is cool sounding.
I am so tired right now I could be talking about monkeys, I think, and I wouldn't even notice. But I'm pretty sure I disagree about God not using any supernatural revelation anymore. I'll think on it some more. :-)
Wow, you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth be writing this! Except for the husband thing... That's not how I roll... Lol
It's nice to know I'm not the only reformed baptist that's questioning how we use music in our services...
I'll write a longer comment later when I have more time. Lots and lots could be said.
Yessssssssssss... that's one point for Emily. :-)
MNM!!! I'm going to leave you a horendously long post.
Later tonight.
Because I have homework now.
But I read this yesterday and have been thinking about things you said all night and all day and I really want to leave you a post.
But it's going to be a little bit.
Just so you know it's coming. :) Think of this as a teaser trailer or something.
mhm, i want to be careful not to dismiss those who worship differently than me, and agree that many people who worship more charismatically than reformed baptists (basically everyone) are indeed worshiping in knowledge and truth. However, I do not have a problem saying that most theologies following the steps of the Charismatic theology probably do not have true worship with God because they practice what they call an "experiential worship" or "being 'connected' with God", which, according to Pastors and pupils of that faith which i have talked to, is done without any knowledge present, and is based on "experiences" which seem to consist of feelings, emotions, personal revelations, and other things. And the reason for my disagreement on this is that when I search the Bible for passages on worshiping I find no where where their is "worship" without knowledge and conversely worship with just feelings. But i don't know, i realize I'm being pretty hard on them, but thats my current conviction, which is always up for debate.
But I would love to go to a church where they had a full band (any instrument you could think of), but set up behind the congregation, and four singers who sang the different parts of every song. That, would be amazing.
Wow Em, soooo on the same page with you here about God, worship etc. etc. I had questions before, a lot, but what with running start and being to exposed to so much stuff, I have to go back to things I don't even question anymore or maybe never questioned at all, and get them figured out. Which is probably a very good thing, but also very exhausting. To me anyways.
I think that you're on to something that we only grasp one corner of God's existence. And yes, while that is influenced by the churches we've grown up in I don't think that's really what may limit us sometimes, maybe it's just more our capacity as humans to understand God. We can only wrap our mind around so much at a time.
hmmm, looking back on your post, I see you are saying this. lol.
AND I totally agree that sometimes I too just need to not freak about every deep confusing theological thought because yeah, often it is faith.
Won't it be great to get to heaven and hopefully understand this stuff sooo much better? I'm excited for that.
Wow, I TOTALLY understand what you're going through Beth- and you're handling it so much better than I did my first quarter of college. You've always had more faith than me, I think.
I'll get to the rest of these comments later.
*is pleased* she responded to ME first. lol. :) ;)
You're not gonna believe this. I wrote a comment TOO LONG to be posted!
I feel like this is some sort of great accomplishment/achievement.
So, this comment will be split up into more than one comment. And then there will probably be more later, too.
Here we go....
I know, I said I'd do it last night. Sorry...this week has been crazy. :)
Well, as the "resident heathen" here, I'll throw out all the most shocking and liberal comments. ;) I'll just start by saying I've got nothing against hymns (except that I think many people who grew up with hymns tend to just sing and forget the meaning after awhile. not everyone, but some people. however, this can be done with any songs, not just hymns. my personal problem when singing hymns is that I focus so much on the beautiful singing that I don't think about God at all, most of the time).
anyway, my church has a full band (yes, drums and electric guitar...scandalous, I know). and since I'm in said band I guess it's obvious that I'm ok with the music style.
The topic of emotions is a hard one for me. I struggle a lot with emotions - with basing decisions off of emotions, with having faith when "happy emotions" aren't there, etc. But I guess I'd like some clarifications about what you guys mean when you say "worshipping in knowledge."
In my opinion, while knowledge of God is very important and a wonderful thing (and it's the beginning of worship - you can't worship someone you know nothing about), it is also dangerous if we obsess over it. Sometimes, for me at least, I spend so much time just focusing on what I know ABOUT God that I don't take the time to get to KNOW God. There's a big difference between knowledge of somebody and a relationship with them, and it's no different with God. There are people who think they are saved because of how much they know ABOUT God (I used to be one of them); I'd hate to see that people think they are worshipping by just thinking ABOUT God. We are supposed to be talking to Him and then listening to Him, not just thinking ABOUT Him.
On another side of that, I wouldn't say that 'charismatic' worship is just spirit and truth without knowledge (and btw is there a verse somewhere that includes this knowledge thing? is this another reformed baptist thing I didn't grow up with and so don't know about?). granted, there are some just plain bad contemporary worship songs, but the majority of them are actually quite good (in terms of content). And if your time of worship (whether it be hymns or contemporary) is spent proclaiming truths about God and meditating on those truths and what He has done, and letting these truths lead you into conversation with your Savior, isn't that the most important 'knowledge' of all?
I know a lot of people don't like contemporary songs because the majority of them are me-focused. I agree with this to some extent...but we can't discount all of them because some are bad. Some of the songs are only focused on ME asking God for something. that's a selfish song, imho. But other songs are also individualized like this (i.e. "me" instead of "we") and have to do with talking to God, praising Him, etc. I like these because sometimes I can't put my own thoughts/feelings into words and I can just sing the song as my own prayer from my heart to God's. While singing as a "we" group to God is great, and gives the feeling of community as the Body of Christ, I think the "me" songs can give the feeling of personal relationship that aren't always found int the "we" songs.
Take my fret/Take my fear/All I have, Lord/I'm leaving here/Be all my hopes/Be all my dreams/Be all my delights/Be my everything.
And I will worship/You Lord, only You Lord/And I will bow down/Before You, only You Lord
And it's just You and me here now/Only You and me here now....
I like what Mr. silenceissafety said (sorry I can't remember your real name right now - it's late!). As far as emotions go - where are they coming from? Like you said Emily, we're human, and we're created in such a way that certain things set our emotions off. Being in love is an emotional experience. Having a best friend stirs up different emotions/feelings. Talking with the Creator of the universe who sacrificed Himself for you should also stir up some emotions, in my opinion. And I don't think it's such a bad thing for a song to draw these emotions out. After all, the 'normal' music we listen to on a daily basis does the same thing, right? A conversation with someone you're close to might leave you feeling deliriously happy, or might leave you in tears, etc. Why can't a conversation with God touch our deepest emotions?
I agree that sometimes a worship "experience" is created solely to bring these emotions out, sometimes too strongly and too quickly to be genuine. I've been in places before where I felt uncomfortable if I wasn't on the verge of tears or dancing in the aisles, and I don't think that's how it should be.
I like my own church simply because we seem to have every type of person. Our theology leans more towards calvinism. Our worship is contemporary, with a few traditional hymns thrown in from week to week. But in terms of congregation, we've got a few random super-charismatic people, the dancing-in-the-aisles type. There are usually several people with their arms raised, but you don't feel uncomfortable just standing there, or even sitting, being still and doing nothing with your body.
I think the most dangerous thing about worship - with both hymns and with contemporary songs, is the horribly common pitfall of singing for show. Again, we're human. You get a bunch of us together and pretty soon you're either trying to sing the most beautifully, or listening to someone else sing beautifully, or watching the one person with their arms raised, or wondering if other people are watching you.....
When we are truly only thinking about the One we are worshipping, what does it matter what kind of music we are singing, or if it's traditional or charismatic?
David danced half naked before the Lord. And God was pleased. Because they were in communion with each other.
Ok, that's all I have on that topic. Since this comment really is horrendously long, I think I'll give a seperate comment to the other sections of this blog. :)
(P.S. Feel free to disagree, argue, etc. I haven't had a good debate in quite awhile, lol.)
Ok, about God speaking to us, people prophecying (don't worry, I can't spell it either!), etc., I totally still believe in that stuff. I guess I've seen enough evidence of it in my own life and in people who I'm really close to, whose word I trust, that I have to believe it. And I don't see any reason why it wouldn't still be happening today.
Besides that, isn't that why we have the Holy Spirit today? I believe the Holy Spirit is responsible for conscience, and for those feelings you get that you just have to do something/talk to someone, etc.
And another thing - if God doesn't talk to us anymore, what's the point? Why do we need to be still and listen to Him, if we don't really expect to hear anything? If we can talk to Him all day long but never received guidance back, why do we bother? The idea that we only have the Bible but we don't have God speaking to us anymore....scares me to death. And I'd like to think that all the time my pastor spends in prayer and talking to God throughout the week is because he's listening to hear what God would have him talk about; not just because it's what he felt like preaching about that week.
Like I said, a lot of my personal reasons for believing that God still speaks, does miracles, etc. are from my own experience and that of people close to me. I believe gifts like speaking in tongues still exist because I've seen in before - but no, I don't think it's something that every Christians has, or that it's a sign of 'baptism with the holy spirit.' I'm not THAT charistmatic, lol.
You guys are all right...we can't EVER fully grasp God in all of his aspects, and I think it's true, we can rarely even see more than one of them at work at one time. Maybe it's why most Christians (myself included) struggle so much with the OT versus the NT God - how they seem like two different Gods. (but of course that is a completely different discussion. :P)
Emily I like what you said: "I do think it's really dangerous to become too convinced that I know what God is like, instead of keeping and open mind and trying to learn more about him all the time."
Once you think you know exactly what God's like, that's when you're in huge trouble. We're human, He is God. hellooooo......we'll never be able to grasp it all, and if we think we've got Him figured out, it just shows how conceited and idiotic we really are.
As far as the loneliness thing...I'm kind of in the same boat, I guess. We go through phases in life, and in and out of groups that will be LIFE to you while you're there. the transition time is the hardest, but it'll pass and there will be something else for awhile. The important part is to keep the sweetness and the growth that you gain during this time in your relationship with God - keep it as the constant in your life, instead of banking on flawed people and groups that come and go (and then being devestated when a good thing ends). I had to learn this the hard way...I guess I'm still learning it.
It's encouraging though, to think that God is the constant and He'll never let us down. It's something I've struggled with so much this year, because in the last 3-4 years of my life I've had so many let-downs on a human level; I've watched two youth groups fall apart, had friendships with major ups and major downs and everything in between, had seemingly perfect situations turn out horribly, and have recently just had a lot of more personal issues with confidence and the ways I view other people. I spent a couple of months getting close to someone, and thinking in my head the whole time "this person is going to let me down." I built them up to be a super-person in my head, and practically set them up to fail. and then I spent that whole time subconsciously waiting for them to let me down.
The nice thing is that when it happened I wasn't surprised and I
didn't blame them. :) Seriously, I am screwed up and I need to have more realistic, less needy expectations of people.
But I only just realized last week that I've been keeping a distance between me and God because I've been waiting for Him to let me down like everybody else. But it's been amazing finally getting it through my thick skull that He never will. =)
Oh dear, the old planning-out-my-life thing. Did I ever tell you that I gave up? I mean, I've got the general outline, but I don't freak out anymore if it changes.
Just to encourage you dear, don't worry about getting married. Don't look for a husband unless you think it's what God is putting on your heart to do. If He wants you to get married, He'll bring the guy to you. You have so much time to follow all these desires and goals, and if a husband is part of them (or meant to replace them), God will let you know at the right time. In the meantime, nothing is stopping you from tackling whatever you want to! Enjoy your single years and don't LOOK for the end. Embrace it like a woman when it comes, but don't try to hurry it up.
And if you spend a lot of time stressing and trying to figure out what the plan should be, you'll only get one result:
Stress.
And don't worry about "if I don't get married then what'll I do for the rest of my life?" If you keep seeking God's will, He'll keep you plenty busy!
and ughh...I have four quarters left to finish my AA. At least we'll still be here next fall when everyone else leaves, and then we won't get all depressed!
<3 Okay, I feel like I've just finished a monumental task and deserve a good night's sleep.
Goodnight, world.
Hmmm. The thought just occurred to me that I posted four consecutive LOOOOOOOOOONG comments, and I'm beginning to wonder if anybody will actually read them.
Oh well, they felt good to write anyway. :)
*clears throat* heh, well... hello Verya (what's that mean btw?)
i did read every word you posted, you'll be happy to know, but before I say anything i want to wait for g4 (nathan?) to respond. and yes emily, you gotta help us out a little, too many topics in one post!! ;)
Haha, Verya means "brave" in Elvish. Because my real name is Kacy, which means "brave." So technically it's my name in Elvish. :)
Yes, I was a MAJOR geek at one point. I am now only a minor geek.
Well, cool I'm glad that you read it. I'll be waiting for a response.
Okay, here's Nathan's comment: (he couldn't post it because my blog hates him. Not me, just my blog :-P)
"I'm gonna break this into sections. Big, unedited, sometimes rambling, other times raving, sections. This will be section one: Music in worship. Good luck!
As a reformed baptist I know how you feel when it comes to music in the church. But what I wonder is this; Are we singing hymns because it is the godliest thing to do? Or because it has become a tradition? Often it's the latter or people have the strange belief that just because things are contemporary it makes them less Godly. Well, newsflash people! 350 years ago hymns were the contemporary Christian songs and pianos were the revolutionary new instruments!. So what the electric guitar and drumset are today a piano and violin duet was then. I personally don't have anything against a church band. It doesn't matter if the instrument is an organ, or a piano, or an electric guitar, or a violin, or a bass, or whatever it is! What's important is that the lyrics are God glorifying and God centered. Not man-centered, feel good music that's fun to sing but doesn't actually mean anything. This is what has given contemporary Christian songs so much flak. The hymns are really rich and full of scripture, but frankly, they can be really tedious and unenjoyable to sing. Not always, but sometimes.
I said it once and I'm going to say it again. Are we singing hymns because it is the godliest thing to do? Or because it has become a tradition?"
Someday I will join in this discussion! I've been pretty crazy busy. And when I'm not busy I'm too scatterbrained to post.
Haha, know the feeling MNM. We'll be waiting for you. :)
YESYESYES. I so agree with Nathan here. I really wish that instead of just the old hymns, we sang some contemporary hymns and maybe a few praise songs as well at my church. I do know some good ones. What Verya says about concerns with them being to "me focused" is very much the concern at my church, I believe, that and "vain repetition"... what we call songs that are so repetitive you don't even think about what you are singing and are pointless. However. I think that, in many ways, these are stereotypes for modern praise songs or hymns, and that like I said before, it's just a matter of finding the good ones. Not sure about instruments etc. etc. Also, the idea of people dancing in the isles etc. etc. does make me feel uncomfortable. I'm not exactly sure WHY though, so I'll think on that.
Speaking of Verya, oh my word Kacy, this is THE most gigantic reply to any post ever. And you would be the one to do it. And I did read it all.
So here's what I think about the emotions/knowledge thing. And my opinions and views on this morph and change, quite a lot. But for now: Emotion and knowledge need to be balanced. A pastor can't always simply preach the gospel message over and over. Eventually, his congregation need the nitty gritty theology stuff. There is a passage from one of the books Paul writes in the Bible that says something about starting with "bread and water" but eventually the need the meat. Kinda an analogy. I'll try and find the exact reference. In many ways, that verse seems to back this up the most. Besides, to worship God properly, we do need to have knowledge of him. Also, to me, knowledge about God IS that theological stuff. Learning about the hard things, that aren't so nice. Figuring out exactly what you believe, to an extent. Obviously we will always always have questions, but we need to know what we believe for the most part.
I agree Kacy, "charismatic" worship isn't necessarily without knowledge, but I think that is the trap it might tend to fall into. While, on the other hand, Calvinists tend to neglect the feelings/emotions part of worship. Or such is the stereotype. However, I think that many people who worship in reformed churches DO have the emotion. Like Danny illustrated.
*sighs* And I'm really confused about the God speaking to us thing. I'm not even gonna try to go into that one right now.
Danny- don't you think experiences are, to a degree, relatively important in shaping a worldview? I mean, experiences can confirm our beliefs. Otherwise we would be fools to follow any kind of truth, if we hadn't experienced the reality of it ourselves.
I guess that's not universally true, because there are some things we have to believe that we will never experience, but we know by experience that God exists and that He is faithful and just and things like that. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe the problem isn't that people trust their experiences too much, but that they arn't educating themselves inteligently or Biblically on what context or framework to put those experiences into.
About supernatural revelation- this is so complicated. But I know that God is soverign, and that life is providential, which seems a hairs-breath distinction from supernatural revelation. If I suddenly have the idea to talk to someone, God was absolutely in control of that thought, which means it was His will that I talk to that person- he made it happen. If I decide something by the roll of a dice, he is in soverign control of which way the dice lands... although it would probably be a misuse of God's soverignty to decide major issues that way and call it following God.
So now that I think about it, this is kind of a taboo point of mine in the first place, because I should probably always act based on reason instead of trying to follow whimsical feelings I get, even if following those whimsical feelings would ultimately work out to God's will... it might be sin on my part. Although I'm not totally sure why. Hum... I'm in over my head.
Okay, more comments comming for the rest of you. :-)
Verya: "Sometimes, for me at least, I spend so much time just focusing on what I know ABOUT God that I don't take the time to get to KNOW God."
You hit the nail on the head! I couldn't agree more.
And everything you said about how we get caught up in thinking about ourselves or others instead of focusing on God. Ultimately what I want is a worship experience where everyone is free to do exactly what they are comforatable doing, so long as it's genuine. Mrs. Busby explained the worship of the FIRE churches that way and I've been jealous ever since. I know plenty of people who would never be comfortable dancing in the isles, and that's fine- I probably wouldn't dance in the isles, but I would close my eyes and lift my hands up if I didn't know people would be starring at me and thinking I had lost my mind, which they would.
I'm still scared of music that is fun. Emotional doesn't bother me as much as fun. Because then I really think people are in it for the wrong reason- being in it for the emotional interaction with God is not nearly as bad as being in it for the feeling of being a gutar hero. Music is a powerful tool in and of its self and we DO need to be careful how we use it. But yeah, I think you said all of this better than I did! ily. <3
I'm glad you agree about only grasping a corner of God's existence, and you had good thoughts on that. Made me think even more. :-)
As to what you said about supernatural revelation, refer to what I said in my comment to Danny. I'm still figuring this one out, but you've provided more food for thought.
Thanks also for your words about planning my life, and of course your life. I'm not looking for a husband at all... but sometimes I just worry about things for no reason. You know how it goes. That sounds amazing about realizing that God will never let you down. Maybe I've been doing the same thing, I don't know.
Nathan: Other than the whole music being too fun thing, I think I agree with you. People cling to tradition, and these vauge ideas of propriety, as though they were second only to the Bible. I don't think that's right, although it's fine if some people are uncomfortable worshiping any other way. Good point.
Methinks there is a pretty big difference between searching for a husband and wanting a husband. yes?
I agree about church music being fun. Like Mars Hill. The music was AMAZING, and in many ways I'd say it was worship, but it many ways it was music like I would listen to on my ipod... "fun" music. Or so it seems to me.
Gah! my post didn't work! grrrrr well heres a second angered attempt..
mk, easy stuff first.
Music. I think i completely agree with you all. You basically have to take it song by song and make sure there's truth in the lyrics and that, at the core, it involves the person and that honor is going to God. That's really about it, contemporary/monastery chants - it's all fair game. And good point about instruments Nate boy.
I don't really know how a feel about David dancing in front of the Lord and dancing in churches today.. I mean I think it goes into a difference between old testament standards verses new, and perhaps private and public worship. But being uneducated on the matter I will keep silent.
Special Revelation. Allow me to qualify how I believe this works. I guess I use the term "Special Revelation" to mean supernatural events or direct revelation of God himself to common man by some means. Examples from the Bible are the sun standing still or speaking in tongues. Granted, I do believe the Bible in itself is a form of special revelation, exclusively because without it we cannot be saved. I believe what you refer to, Emily, I would call natural revelation. Yes, God has every individuals entire life plans mapped out, and every bit of our past was ultimately controlled by Him. Through our knowledge of Bible we can see God working in our lives and to an extent His mysterious sovereign ways are reveled to us, but an accurate scope and analysis of God's workings is only brought to our understanding through a knowledge and faith in the Bible.
As for God or the Holy Spirit leading and directing us, I believe that feelings and our conscience are like two little compasses. They give us these intuitions and move our hearts to consider some side of a decision or the other. But when making the final cut, the Bible never speaks of using feelings or emotions, it actually condemns the emotion of anger (and praises love), and says the conscience can be scarred and broken enough to where the compass is always morally backwards. So I see these as sort of jump points or guidelines. However, "In a multitude of counselors there is much wisdom" - a.k.a. (btw what does aka stand for?) reason. I know Miss Kacy Verya would say, "But the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us into all truth and understand though right?" And we are going to disagree on this I know, and that perfectly alright :) But since i don't really believe in special revelation, I don't take it to mean that, but like I said before, you and I and everyone here can only see God and His works because we are Christians and have this knowledge and faith in His Word that the rest of the world cannot understand, like what Jesus said about the parables- that only his followers can understand them.
So, my conclusion, feelings and such allow us to experience God and enjoy or make use of Him more, but when it comes to following them [i believe] they should never be the biggest reason for any decision we make- well i guess the important ones, obviously if i feel like cinnimon toast crunch tomorrow that's what my bellys gonna get!
speaking of...
Experiences. This is the hard on for me, and I agree and disagree.. i think.. "experiences can confirm our beliefs. Otherwise we would be fools to follow any kind of truth" depends on what you mean. So, it's like i was saying before, because I believe in the Bible as God's Word, i connect every event to Him. Naturally when i look back I see Him working and i experience His goodness to me and sometimes His justice toward me. An unbeliever sees neither and thus is blind, experiencing nothing of God on a spiritual level, though him and I could have lived identical lives. So yes, these things that I go through strengthen (or weaken) my faith at times, and you could call it me experiencing God.
(cont)
I agree that most people take their "experiencing God" out of context of the Bible and thus misunderstand it. Also, if you ask them to describe what that experience looks like it is often walking a very fine like of emotions and feelings and intuitions. "I just know" "You could just feel God present and working" "I know it's true because I experienced it" - I personally am wary of these statements often. I don't know, imho and finite mind, I don't see God working in this way.
I also believe experiences can actually close a persons mind rather than than the common belief that it opens it. Consider this, the classic story of me and Sarah. We differed on the point of spiritual gifts, so I have since (8+ months) been researching and trying to have an open mind on the issue, speaking to her pastor and mine and everyone whose anyone trying to find the truth. She always told me, "I know what I believe, I just know and I'm never going to change my mind, I experienced it.. etc." You can see my scar tissue. I don't believe she ever opened her mind to consider them not being real because she relied to heavily on her experience. And because of that, she never liked to talk about it and never really embarked on the search with me until times got desperate.
So I believe experiences can be tricky things and must always, when in question, be tested against the Word of God and that you MUST have the option to deny an experience. If there is no option, you are not free to choose what you believe. - I have actually been struggling with this, it feels sometimes like i cannot choose to believe in some things, whether special revelation or Buddhist verse Christianity, and if i don't have a choice i'm brainwashed, and I will fight that until i die.
Ok, well I've had the floor long enough. and.. I have a monolith size unpublished draft about the whole spiritual gifts thing in the works but i don't think i'll be done for a while yet cause of school and everything. But i'll post it one day so you guys can give your input :)
peace.
Huh, it took me a while, but I think I really see what you're saying. And it's a great point, I'm glad you made me think about it.
Wow, great thought Danny on special revelation, this topic JUST came up again today and I am def. confused about it. But your thoughts are all really good. And I really really really think that you should make a full fledged post on it asap.
More later ya'll, I gotta run.
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