Okay, here's an ethical/moral question to ponder: how important is doctrine, really?
I mean, I 100% believe that theology is the framework for everything that you do. Ideas have consequences and what you believe about God has big consequences. There is only one correct answer to any doctrinal/theological question, and it is our responsibility to do everything we can to deduct that correct answer.
But as we all know, people come up with different answers to these questions all the time. And unless they are doubting that Christ is the Son of God and that it is only through Him that you can be saved, or perhaps the inerency of the Bible or other equally fundumental principles of the Christian religion, it would be absurd to say that such a person wasn't trully a born again child of God because they interpreted the scriptures differently. So in that since, it almost doesn't matter what you believe about things like the Sabbath or Dispensationalism or whatever the issue is.
However, as our pastor was saying on Sunday, the goal of being a Christian is not just to get to heaven. Our Goal is to become as Christ-like as possible, to conform ourselves to the likeness of our Savior. So you could stand to reason that any incorrect doctrine has some sin mixed in with it, or at the very least will cause us to sin because of the way we live in reaction to that doctrine. Which would make us not conforming to the image of Christ, and thus crippling ourselves in the very purpose which we are here to accomplish.
Taking all of that into consideration, how accepting should we be of Christians with other doctrines? I mean, obviously we should love them and treat them as our equals and not burn down their buildings or anything, but what amount of "incorect" doctrine can we put up with in the organizations that we support with our money and time, or the people that we fellowship with as Christians, or the books that we read?
I guess this is something of a pet peeve of mine, when people allow doctrinal differences to get in the way of unity between the churches and ESPECIALLY ministry work. I hate the mentality that I have to constantly be picking my way through a mine field of people, books, and oporoutnities to find the ones that are Conservative Reformed Baptist Evengelical, and only then can I get involved. Because it seems like there are a lot of great things out there in a wide variety of backgrounds and we could all learn a lot from each other if we could just get past our differences. I mean, that sounds so touchy-feely, but really, we Calvinists could learn a lot from the way Armininists evangalize so energetically, even if we don't want to teach the same doctrine. And we could learn from the carismatics about worship. There's even a lot to learn from the Mormans- I'm just saying, when we box ourselves in to our own little way of thinking, we become prey to all the potential pit falls of that way of thinking. And they ALL have pitfalls.
So I don't know, maybe this is just my feeling side wanting us to all just get along like hippies.
But I would love to know, what issues would make you say, no, I'm not going to read a book by a person who believes that, or no, I'm not going to fellowship with a church that believes that, and what would you be willing to overlook?
Wednesday, September 09, 2009
what the world needs now is love, sweet love :P
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
21 comments:
Hm... interesting point, Emily.
I try to look past doctrinal differences myself and be open minded to those kinds of things.
I don't think Jesus would want the churches to be completely divided, unwilling to listen and learn from each other.
It'd be great if it was the other way around.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of close minded people out there who think that "their way" is the "right" way and the only way.
(You know what I noticed today about our posting habits... you always seem to be coming up with questions and I'm always about coming up with answers to my own questions. I thought that was kind of interesting... makes me want to ask more questions that other people can answer for themselves instead of coming off as kind of a know-it-all. So, sorry about that. more of a note to self than anything. :P)
Anyway getting back to the subject, the only time i won't consider whether someone's beliefs or ways of life are worth adapting is when its obvious that they defy the teachings of Jesus and the Bible.
but really, you can't get too far away from that and still be part of a Christian church.
I think it would be an awesome idea for churches to set times aside to sit down and openly talk about their differences, if only to gain a mutual understanding and sense of goodwill between them.
It would be kind of like Bible study, but for multiple churches.
That shouldn't be too hard to arrange.. I'm sure there are people who would be happy to do it.
Wow, yeah, that's a really cool idea. Somehow I know most of the people in my church wouldn't go for it, though, and I'm not sure why. This is something that is very hard for me to understand.
No, I like it when people present opinions and information in their blogs! I mean, really it's the same because I usually start with a question and end up presenting my own opinion, and you just present your own opinion and leave it open for others to present theirs.
That's true; I guess we all just end up answering each others questions anyway :P
Even though it sounds like it'd be a really cool idea; I'm not sure everybody would go for it (like you said).
There would be the people who absolutely refuse to believe in anything besides what they grew up with, and there would be the people who have such a busy schedule they just wouldn't be able to make another commitment like that.
Though you know (I just thought of this)... what if just a few people from different churches got together, and then came back and talked about what they learned to their own churches?
Hm..
Again, it sounds really good on paper. I'm not sure how many people would be willing to do that but its definitely worth a try in my opinion. :)
Okay, this is something that I keep thinking about. In a lot of ways i think that doctrinal issues shouldn't be as major as we make them out to be. Like if someone doesn't agree with some small part of a church's doctrine, they shouldn't just pack up and move, you know? I mean, often its more than that that makes a person leave. But still.
The tangent on this is how to decide on which church to go to. I mean, the bible says that we should be involved in a church, but it doesn't say which one, or what denomination, etc. So do we just have to look around until we find the church thats CLOSEST to what we believe? or do you just settle down and accept everything that church tells you? And is every church just a representation of the elders' beliefs?
This is WAY to confusing, really.
Well, the church I go to is Catholic.
Every mass, the Priest will read a few passages from the Bible and what lessons we should learn from them.
He does it in a very straightforward, human way, that isn't hard to agree with.
So I think as long as you're going to a church that focuses more on Biblical teachings than specific doctrinal things you should be fine.
For example, it was protestants I think who said that everyone should be able to talk to God, not just Priests, Bishops, and the Pope.
But the Catholic church I go to doesn't focus on getting messages through the Catholic hierarchy, just learning things from the Bible.
Those are the kinds of churches I like. :)
Yeah, that seems like a good way to do it. But Paul talks about how the believers need meat, not just milk like newborns. I've always thought of the doctrinal stuff as more meaty issues, and that paul says mature believers need to learn and think about.
Excelent point, sis. :-)
yeah, this is a really really hard one, and has been coming up in my life a LOT in my life, lately.
What Paul said is a REALLY good reason why we ought to study theology and doctrine. (what passage is that from?)
I think that often the best you can do is find a church closest to what you believe, but I think that it's possible to find a church you agree with, or at least agree with nearly everything. At least everything important.
In answer to your question, Emily, what I am willing to read in books, versus church I'm willing to attend is pretty big . . . not surprisingly. Since a church is where we learn from and grow in Christ, and while books affect us it's not really the same thing.
the thought that believing incorrect doctrine could keep us from becoming more Christ like is VERY interesting, I've never thought/heard about that idea before.
Also, while I think different churches with different doctrines should certainly be able to get along, I think it's important not to compromise what we believe.
Yeah, I think you're right. And Elizabeth's point has really been sinking in with me over the last few days- I think that's what I've been missing. It IS important that we are fed the meat of the gospel, not just the nice easy things that are on the surface. And for whatever reason, when you get into the nitty-gritty stuff of the gospel, people disagree vastly... it's almost like we can snack on chips and dip with other denominations, but we can't really eat a satisfying steak dinner together. Because we're totally conflicted about how to serve it and what kind of meat it is and what seasonings it requires... okay, maybe I'm taking this too far, but it kind of works in helping me to understand.
Perhaps the truth about things is less subjective than I think it is. Maybe I should be more concerned about those who believe in doctrines that I don't see demonstrated in scripture, I don't know.
RANDOM TANGENT: It is much easier for me to love complete pagans than it is for me to love the Christians in my life who have minor inconsistancies in their walk with God or who just plain annoy me with their habits or manarisms or whatever. Am I the only one?
You're not the only one, Emily.
I feel the same way sometimes.
Well that's good to know.
yeah, that really really is the key. I'd still like to see what passage that is from.
And I think your analogy is a pretty good one for explaining that.
Okay - here's the passage:
1 corinthians 3:1-3
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
It pretains more than we thought.
it's from Paul's letter to the Corinthians: 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
and it's interesing that Paul wrote that letter to them because they were having MAJOR church problems. as in, getting drunk at communion and having affairs within the church sort of problems.
*sigh* I think this is a great question and I really good discussion as well. I'll share my own opinion.
Here's an example just from my denomination of how I think things ought to work throughout Christendom - in the Evangelical Free Church denomination, each church has to agree on the same statement of faith - same core issues. but then each church is free to do what they want as far as what kind of music they play, how often they take communion, when they want to have services, etc. so they agree on doctrine but have total freedom on non-important issues beyond that.
I think the same should work for Christians as a whole. we agree on the really essential things that make us Christians - Christ is the son of God, was fully God and fully human, died in our place, rose from the dead, is returning.
and if we could all realize that we agree on that and the rest is pretty much pointless, I think we'd be doing pretty well.
Honestly, this may sound terrible, but I don't think that non-salvation-essential doctrine is really that important. and I don't really like most denominational churches for that reason; it's too easy to get caught up in nit-picky stuff that doesn't have much bearing on our day to day lives. then what does the rest of the world see? us arguing with each other over what day of the week to meet and if we should sing hymns or praise songs.
Honestly, there are HUGE problems in this world that the church should be addressing, rather than micromanaging themselves. and by the church I mean the body of Christ, not the EFC denomination or the Reformed Baptists or the Presbyterians or anything like that.
I've been reading Paul's letters to all of these churches with all of their problems. it's interesting just reading the letters in their contexts. when you read it like a letter written to struggling first-generation Christians rather than as something written straight to you (yes I know it does apply to our lives but that's not the original thing it was written for), you get a much more global, Body-of-Christ kind of perspective for it. At least I have been. And the way we got all of these doctrines we have so much fun arguing over nowadays? when there was a problem, they covered it in prayer and asked really mature Christians for advice.
But it's interesting - in Paul's time there weren't all these denominations. actually, Paul got really upset at the Corinthians when they started saying "I follow Peter, I follow John, I follow Paul." and isn't that what we do today? We follow the teachings of Calvin, or Wesley, or Augustine, or Luther, or Finney, or Hus, or Spurgeon. Honestly - these people were great teachers, but aren't we doing just what the Corinthians did? Gleaning from their wisdom is good, but when we segregate ourselves according to our "denomination's" founding father, don't we deserve to be yelled at by Paul just as much as the Corinthians did? just a thought.
But anyway, all that to say, I really don't think it's that important. This most important thing in this world isn't to know where you stand on every little doctrinal issue, but to be plugged into the heart of God, praying a lot, and serving others both within the Body of Christ and outside of it.
so there. there's my two cents. :)
and I missed you guys and these crazy awesome discussions!
Okay so:
I agree with the fact that the most important doctrine of all is Christ's death and rising again, etc. etc. But I think the other docrines are important. firstly, they are in the Bible, whichever answer is true. secondly, they really do affect how we live our lives and are percieved by those or aren't christians.
Many of the letters to different churches, taken in perspective, are dealing with the docrinal, theological issues, especially the ones from Paul, as well.
And I think that your point about Paul getting upset about the divisions when the churches would say I am of Paul, I am of such and such is an EXCELLENT point, and definately something to think on and work on, in churches. Although, at the same time, if I hold to my belief that theology is REALLY important, than chuches are gonna need a way to define themselves.
And while knowing where you stand on every doctrinal issue may not be the most important part, I think we can't under-estimate it. I mean, it's important to know what we believe. Think about if you're trying to witness to someone, or trying to help someone who was recently converted? If you don't know what you believe about some of the more in depth stuff, that is gonna get pretty complicated.
idk, just some more thoughts . . .
Okay so:
I agree with the fact that the most important doctrine of all is Christ's death and rising again, etc. etc. But I think the other docrines are important. firstly, they are in the Bible, whichever answer is true. secondly, they really do affect how we live our lives and are percieved by those or aren't christians.
Many of the letters to different churches, taken in perspective, are dealing with the docrinal, theological issues, especially the ones from Paul, as well.
And I think that your point about Paul getting upset about the divisions when the churches would say I am of Paul, I am of such and such is an EXCELLENT point, and definately something to think on and work on, in churches. Although, at the same time, if I hold to my belief that theology is REALLY important, than chuches are gonna need a way to define themselves.
And while knowing where you stand on every doctrinal issue may not be the most important part, I think we can't under-estimate it. I mean, it's important to know what we believe. Think about if you're trying to witness to someone, or trying to help someone who was recently converted? If you don't know what you believe about some of the more in depth stuff, that is gonna get pretty complicated.
idk, just some more thoughts . . .
Right, I think I agree with you. And also, I think the point Paul was trying to make in that chapter is that it's more important that we cling to scripture than to any one person's inturpretation of it- we're CHRISTians first and foremost and Calvinists or Reformed Baptists or whatever else after that.
Also, I think it's important to recognize that alot of people just don't bother to think things through very well, or arn't taught very well, or who just plain want to do things their way and arn't all that concerned with finding truth. I guess that's something I take forgranted, because I want to believe that everyone has an equal motivation and ability to discern the truth, but that's not always the case. I mean, I've been given amazing oporotunities and teachers that have trained me to take these things seriously, but that's not standard fare.
'ello mates. um yes, i always seem to come in way to late on these dealios but i don't care, i feel like writing.
So, yes, I'd like to believe we can all get along, worship in the big Truths, and smile and wave at the small ones. I believe that as Christians pursuing one God, with one Bible, with one objective interpretation, we shouldn't really have any denominations. the 1 Cor. passage speaks to this, and we never even hear about different denominations in the Bible.
What i think happens is that every one makes one of two mistakes. They take that Bible and ask, "how do I interpret it, or they take it and read the good parts and cling and thrive on those. This is how denominations were born. Charasmatics go coo-coo for spiritual gifts, and Reformers hang out alone combing the Bible for every detail they can squeeze out, forgeting to live at times. The Bible is Objective, and it is sufficient and complete. I believe if we spent the time to learn what the Bible has to teach us about all things major (which is more minor points than you think) we would not have denominations, just a Christ-following, Bible-based, super-religion. or something....idealisticly. (is that a word? :/)
Yes, we need to eat the meat, not only that, we gotta take the fork and put it in our mouth.
Take Me and my lady friend Sarah for an example. We dating. We ended, we are now somewhere between without labels and such, but heres a little problem. She is a nondenominational, and I am a Baptist (Reformed). She believes in speaking in tongues and the gifts etc. I firmly do not. What do we do? these two differing doctrines change the way in which we worship, or rather it can, and I cannot just agree that perhaps she's right and vise versa. One must be wrong and one must be right. Now, we love each other, and do not want to let go, but how do we get past this? She once said, "Dan, this is why people have differing denominations, people interpret scripture differently" - yes, but it's not subjective, someones wrong and must budge. "Don't you think our pastors have done the leg work already to prove if these things are true?" - So do the Mormons, and the Muslams. Also, I've been reading books to get different perspectives and meeting with her pastor regularly to try to understand this difference. eventually he said, "I don't know that I can answer you" - on points of 'how do we differentiate between visions and prophesies' and 'how do we know what applies to us today, and what applied to them in Corinth (gifts, women covering they're heads) - "I don't claim to be a theologian, i don't know much about greek words and meanings, but i think if you pray to spirit he'll show you the truth." what!? you pastor a church man, and you claim to be a "preacher and not a teacher" of the Word? This disturbed me much, because he obviously had not done the leg work.
We need to prove everything like the Bureans(?) we need to do the leg work, churches are necessary to get points of view, to have healthy christian fellowship with like minded believers, (i don't assume all Christians will ever be without denominations), we need to look at all points of Scripture and not just Gifts, Baptism, or the Mosaic Law, we need to do the leg work friends, so that we believe these things because the Bible says so, full stop. For me, this has meant pulling out the old greek lexicon, and Strong's concordance to try and understand the object message about Gifts and the Baptism of the Spirit. But if i don't who will? and if our pastors and other teachers don't, will i even know? will i test they're doctrine? or will i eat the peas that might be carrots?
I am not at all saying we must do and inductive study of the bible after every sermon, but come on, this is our only purpose in life to Glorify and Magnify Him, should we not do the leg work to understand who, what, when, where, and how we ought to worship and fulfill his will?
So i guess my conclusion is that doctrine is very important, it drastically changes the way you live, and this is why Christians cannot worship with one antoher (which is ridiculous to me, i mean come on, would God want us to be divided like this? i understand there are mysteries, but whether or not we can speak in tongues cannot be a mystery, for the consequences can stop a Christian couple from getting married.) We should put heart and soul into figuring out what is most assuredly believe among us, especially on the life changing issues. And having open minds is not the issue, most people, myself included, just don't want to admit there wrong and don't realize that some doctrine or the other is only believed because they've heard it all their life, and perhaps just "know it's true, because I've experienced it." bollocks, mate, bollocks. Scripture is infallable, trumps all prior notions, and MUST be our sole authority for all of our doctrine, decisions, and declarations...hehe three d's
ramble ramble ramble i'm done. :)
Post a Comment