Alright, I'm really not trying to be all controversial and hip here, but the only good, thought-provoking subject I've been thinking about lately is dating. I guess I always kind of have this in the back of my mind, as I'm revising my standards and planning my future (if such things can be planned at all...) but it's been pushed to the front lately by discussions we've been having at church.
There is an opinion circulating that because neither dating or courting is in the Bible, it's kind of a bogus idea altogether. I think this is pretty radical and at first I was really turned off by it, but the more I think about it the more I see potential truth in it. Other than betrothal, there's never an example in the Bible of two people entering into any kind of a romantic relationship prior to marriage. The guys just go around choosing wives and marrying them.
So. The immeadiate question that pops into my head is this: can the marriage rituals of the Bible be merely a cultural thing, or are we to follow the example of the patriarchs as instruction intended for our benefit? Another example to play with in your head would be that of the roll of women in church- I had to do a speech on this one and it was very tough. Paul says women should be quiet in church and not take up any positions of leadership, but there are many Christians who argue that this was merely a cultural thing. (Verses would be helpfull here, I'll dig up my old paper if anyone gets hung up on this point.) I took the stance that Paul's instruction for women was God's instruction, not the culture's instruction.
But is there a difference between being specifically told something, like in Paul's instruction to women, and just seeing patterns of behavior, as in marriage customs? I know that we don't ONLY listen to direct commands in the Bible. When I hear a sermon on Joseph there's always application from his life. Something like, "Just as Joseph was bold here, so we ought to be bold in such and such situation."
On the other hand, there were lots of things done by people in the Bible that we don't even think twice about doing, such as washing one another's feet or... yeah, washing one another's feet. (Let me know if you can think of another example.) So perhaps more appropriately the question is how do you draw the line between cultural things and things we should embrace in our own lives? I'm sure this question could apply to much more than just dating.
I think this whole concept is interesting because the only way I've ever exaimened the issue before is by applying Biblical principles, never by looking to the Bible for the how-to instructions. (As Donald Miller says, there are how people and there are why people. I've always been a why person.)
The alternative to dating/courting would be to just be friends with a person, even if they have expressed interest in you, until the time when the guy is ready to propose. The idea is to avoid the expectations put on a couple who are in a relationship, the expectations to spend time alone, to treat one another in a special way, perhaps even to be physically involved to a certain degree (although I know many courtships have done without this just fine). Are these expectations necessarily a bad thing? I don't know. Sometimes they put pressure and sometimes they are harmful, but perhaps some of them are good. For example, the expectation to follow through, to either marry the girl or give her a full explanation for choosing to not marry her, gives the girl a ring of protection that enables her to trust the guy with her emotions.
Some would say that you should be able to get to know everything you need to know about a person just by being friends with them. I'm not exactly sure this is true, because I don't think it's wise to get super close to a guy you're only just friends with. Then again, how much to you really need to know about a person before you can safely marry them? Arranged marriages have worked out fine in more continents than not for centuries.
And one more question, if you've expressed interest in a person and vice versa, can you even say that you're not in a relationship? Is it a bogus point? What about Jacob and Rachel from Genesis? They loved one another, or at least he loved her, but was unable to marry her for fourteen years. All of that time, she had his heart- is this perhaps an example of what is essentially courtship? It seems that once you have declared your feelings for someone you have something of a commitment to them, if honesty is at all a virtue, to follow through. And I certainly don't think you can skip telling someone you like them until you're ready to propose- or can you?
Friday, July 10, 2009
say goodybe to courtship?
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35 comments:
Wow, this is kind of a heavy subject.
My short answer is I think the line should be drawn between cultural differences and God's expectations where it mentions someone being punished or rewarded for the actions in question.
You didn't mention anything about people being punished by God for being in a "relationship" (non-adulterous, but romantic, of course), so I think if it was really a "bad" thing to be in a romantic relationship before marriage it would have been pointed out in the Bible.
On the subject of arranged marriages having a lower divorce rate, I can't help but also think of the kinds of cultural expectations that go along with those. Many stricter cultures that practice arranged marriage will basically forbid all forms of divorce, so its actually much more difficult for them to separate.
Also, a long marriage isn't necessarily a mutually happy one. Arranged marriages don't allow any say in the matter from either person getting married.
The focus of the marriage becomes keeping it together because its what is culturally required of them to maintain a status quo. Not always, of course, but I can definitely see that happening.
As far as relationships are concerned today, whether two people are "in a relationship" seems to be both a cultural understanding from the people around you and a mutual understanding from both partners.
In other words, two people might agree that they are "in a relationship", but if they hardly see or talk with one another than other people might wonder if you are actually in a relationship.
I realize I sounded a little like an encyclopedia just now. Sorry about that.
Anyway I'm anxious to hear what other people think about it.
Great choice for a discussion topic! :)
This is a good one to think about. I think a video response is in order for this one. :D My favorite kind of response!
Yay! Video response.
Good thoughts Matt- I think you may have an excelent point there about how God would have made it clear if it was wrong. Haha, ever read those Encyclopedia Brown books?? They're about a guy who gets nick named Encyclopedia because he knows so much stuff. Trust me, it was much worse than how you just sounded.
Comming soon to a blog near you- Danny, Jacob, Dan and Christina! They're the people I've been talking about this stuff with, especially Danny.
Hum, the fire alarm is going off in the mall. Fun stuff.
Haha, no I haven't read those.
Maybe I'll look into that sometime.
Video responses and fire alarms are always fun. :)
My short thought is that there is no one way to do it. Each relationship is different. What matters in whatever situation is that it is Christ centered. If you don't have that, than everything else won't be what it should be.
Well amen to that. :-)
Here is my video comment. Enjoy my late night rant. You'll see what I mean... ;)
http://s514.photobucket.com/albums/t348/Sm1tty92/?action=view¤t=MVI_0923.flv
http://s514.photobucket.com/albums/t348/Sm1tty92/?action=view¤t=MVI_0924.flv
http://s514.photobucket.com/albums/t348/Sm1tty92/?action=view¤t=Part3.flv
Maybe I should do another one where I can actually think straight. No, that wouldn't be fun. :-P
I agree with most of what Nathan said.
The part about someone just going up to someone they knew out of the blue and proposing probably did happen though.
I don't think men and women really had many opportunities to get to know each other in those times.
Marriage in the past has been something to keep the family going, or bring families of similar class together.
Even then, the girl being proposed to probably wasn't able to have much say in the matter, and had to tell her father that she had been proposed to. If the father approved and the man's father approved then it would be alright.
As far as courting, I do think it was created as a more God friendly alternative to "dating", although today what people do while dating has very much to do with both people's personal and moral expectations of what it means to date.
So some people who are dating but are saving themselves for marriage might actually be doing less of that sort of thing than two rebellious kids who were forced to merely court but had no intention of following the rules.
This is unfortunate, but that kind of thing has probably happened before.
Anyway I think its not what you call it, its what it is that makes the real difference.
In the words of Shakespeare: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet".
Hahaha... I could never do a video blog like this. I sound way smarter when I write than when I talk. :P
Well Nathan, that was entertaining...
Just fyi, it's customary to say "Will you marry me," not, "Honney? I'm proposing to you." But, you know, whatever works for you...
lol. Okay, so getting down to discussion here:
1. I'm not talking about arranged marriages "back then." Arranged marriages take place all the time now. Kacy (where are you??) knows someone from America who was going to India as a missionary, and he wanted to get married to have someone to labor with him so he essentially arranged a marriage for himself without ever meeting the girl, and they have a perfectly happy, loving marriage now. Arranged marriage is expected in India, and I've heard of it in other countries as well.
I agree that there is the expectation that marriages will last and divorce is unexceptable in most arranged marriage situations- however, I beleive that you CAN learn to love someone regardless of your compatability or attraction or whatever words people use to describe "healthy" dating relationships in America. Think of the mom and dad in Fiddler on the Roof! Okay, that's streaching it... but still. I've heard that arranged marriages can be not only very succesful, but very happy- so long as both parties are willing to try.
2. I agree that Christians designed courtship to get away from the "pitfalls" of dating, but they didn't just make up the idea. Courtship is what was practiced in the olden days, like in Little House on the Prarie. When dating started not working out, Christians did what they always did, and said "We need to get back to our roots!"
The courtship movement was based off of the principles of 100 or so years ago. I think courtship is different from dating in these elements:
1. Parental involvement is normally required.
2. You are expected to court with the intention or purpose of marriage, not just for fun.
3. You're expected to maintain some degree of purity.
These were the same things expected from kids who wanted to get married back then.
So I agree with Matt, the point isn't what you call it- you could easily apply those three principles to dating and avoid the potential pitfalls. But all that to say, it's not just a reaction to the corrupt dating system of our culture, it's reverting to values that used to work out quite nicely for people.
3. I do think it would be weird to propose to someone off the cuff like Nathan just so graphically described- but the question is, do you have to get to know someone in a romantic context (in a relationship) before you can know enough about them to marry them?
Ponder that. I'm still working on it. My immeadiate reaction is yes, of course you do, but then again... how do arranged marriages sometimes work out so well?
gosh...I could say so much on this subject. and I don't really have time right now, but maybe next week after fair I'll leave you a big hefty comment. :)
However, I was thinking about Ruth and Boaz in the Bible...for an example of romance. and I would agree that a lot of it's cultural - the stuff in the Bible. maybe I'll talk to my pastor about it a little, because stuff makes so much more sense once you take it in context.
I would say that it's probably not a good idea to marry someone until you're romantically involved with them. I think it's a good idea to have the pressure and expectations there, because that kind of throws the guy and girl together and helps them think more towards marriage. if two people are moving towards marriage, I think high expectations and accountability from outside people is an excellent thing.
alrighty, I'll try and put more up later. we'll see how it goes...I'm working until Monday. :(
Okay, so personally, I don't think you HAVE to get to know someone romantically first for a marriage to work. However, it would be highly preferable.
Nathan, you seem very skeptical of courtship in general.
I definitely agree with Matt on dating and courtship and how no matter what you call it, it really depends on what the people who are going in the relationship are doing.
Also Emily, what about this: I think that courtship was originally intended to help get rid of the pressure of expectations. Whether or not it actually does, I think, depends on the couple who are involved, and the parents, and, well, a whole lot of things.
Yayyy, I hope Christina and Danny and Jacob and Dan all get on blog, that would be awesome. Not to mention it will be interesting to hear some of Danny's thoughts on this considering you seem to be getting a lot of this from him!
Hm... I still don't have a real answer for why arranged marriages work out so well sometimes..
Maybe its because its the way they're raised; like an arranged marriage to them might be one of the proudest and happiest moments of their life.
Unlike in American culture where we feel like we need to disagree with our parents, move out and make our own decisions, there are other cultures where kids grow up in the same house as their parents and grandparents.
They live in that house until they too become grandparents, unless by marriage move to a different household.
In those kinds of cultures it seems, discipline and decisions made by the parents are signs of love for their children.
Its hard to explain exactly where I'm going with this, especially since I don't personally come from one of those cultures..
But it might be how Emily described how anyone can love anyone in a marriage if they're willing to try... maybe in those cases, both parties are just more genuinely dedicated to working things out and loving each other unconditionally.
I think you're right Beth, courtship was intended to get rid of those expectations. Maybe the biggest problem of all here is Christians who are practicing courtship in a way that is essentially dating, thus blurring the lines to the point where some of us are afraid to associate ourselves with either.
You know you could be right Matt, I don't know. I just think we're all pre-desposed to think a healthy relationship is one which is based in romance, when that might not necessarily be true. The Bible doesn't seem to sugest that.
It doesn't look like my church buddies are going to be joining us after all, apparently they have better things to do. :-P
pfft on church buddies then . . .
Yeah, maybe romance isn't really as necessarily as we tend to think it is.
*horrified gasp*
it's not???????
you mean, there isn't a real life Mr. Darcy waiting for me????
I suppose next you'll be telling me that Santa Claus doesn't exist either.
I know. Shocking, isn't it?
I need to make a new post now.
Now that you mention it, i've actually heard before that the relationships that last the longest are ones that survive on cooperation and companionship.
Intense, romantic feelings don't tend to last nearly as long as just being able to get along well with a person.
haha the Santa Claus comment reminded me of something i saw in an anime once...
in one part, one girl in high school says to another in her class "So when did you find out Santa Claus wasn't real?"
and the other one goes "What do you mean?"
hehehe
Something I thought of. I think when it comes to relationships, people tend to put labels on them. Kind of like Calvinist, etc. People try to fit ideas into a cookie cutter mold and expect everybody to follow. I like a lot about courting, but not everything about it. There are some things in dating that are good too.
Each relationship is different and what is appropriate for one may not be at all for another. Some relationships do need the guidance of parents. While others do not even have that option. Everybody has a preconceived idea when they hear "dating" or "courting" and it tends to color what it really means.
Like you guys were talking about, it does all depend on the attitude and heart of the people. Perhaps instead of trying to fit a relationship into a label, it is best to consider all aspects of the situation and decide how the best way to move forward would be.
There is my rant for the night.
Maybe I should've already said this. But everything I'm saying in this dating/courting discussion is based on observations and not actual experiences since I've never dated/courted anyone. So if I write something that is totally wacked, you now know why. 8)
Missionary Girl, whoever she is, wrote exactly what I was trying to say in my video comment.
"Everybody has a preconceived idea when they hear "dating" or "courting" and it tends to color what it really means."
When a Christian hears the word 'dating' the first thing they usually think of is what is promoted in pop-culture. A guy and a girl go out for a couple weeks, maybe months, but then they break up and they're so sad and their hearts are broken and they cry and the process repeats over and over and this is a very long run-on sentence... You get the point. ;) I've heard this called recreational dating. Dating that's just for the heck of it or so you don't feel "left out." Maybe that's not what you think, but when I hear someone is dating and they are obviously not going to get married, that's what I think.
That was one extreme of dating. But the other extreme is the same as courting. So that is why think the term courting is so much more popular for Christians to use versus dating. Courting is new and fresh and doesn't have the crap reputation behind it's name that dating does. It's like how Hilary Clinton didn't ever use the word Clinton in her presidential campaign. Clinton has bad feelings surrounding that word, but Hilary is new and fresh. "Innocent" in a sense. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. But that's my take on the matter.
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I copied Em's post onto my blog and now she said she's going to sue me for stealing. ;) In the same comment she asked asked if she spelled "suing" correctly, so I looked it up and she did. Everyone give her a big hand of applause! Yay! But I made an interesting discovery. Back in the day, to "sue" someone meant to "woo or court them."
Now I need to ask Emily. Was this some kind of premeditated pick-up-line you ingeniously thought up and covertly inserted into the sentence? Or was it just an interesting coincidence? ;)
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One last thing. I am now going to copy the one and only one relevant comment I got to Emily's post on my blog. Here you go. This is from a guy I will call Striker. He is a New Zealander and is a Mac enthusiast.
"Song of Solomon anyone?
Divorces did happen often back then btw. They had laws dealing with divorce even.
And in my experience, dating is whatever you make of it, courting and dating are the same thing under different labels..
As for Pauls letter regarding woman, iirc that was in relation to the fact that at that time, most of the woman in the church were former prostitutes, as there had just been a big revival with many being saved, so basically, it was saying that the woman who were new christians should sit quietly and learn.
Dating is and should be a very very special thing, that if you choose to do it, you should do it as few times in life as possible.. ;)"
Sorry for any bad grammar, spelling mistakes, and missing words in my previous comment. I'm too lazy to proof read and I really should be sleeping right now.
I also have to say that I really like being able to come onto this blog and have an interesting discussion about something somewhat controversial like this, without it becoming a gigant brawl.
lol!!! So my question is how did the word "sue" completely turn around it's meaning, to something else??
This whole conversation has kinda turned into a "dating versus courtship" conversation. Which I'm totally good with. But a thought about the whole arranged marriage thing:
I think that, like you were kinda getting at, that a marriage could work really well, without being really close before marriage. However, the other extreme of meeting the guy you are going to marry ON your wedding day seems a little strange. I think that would be my biggest objection to arranged marriages . . . the two people involved may know NOTHING about each other before they are married.
I mean, clearly people have made it work, especially in the past, but I think it would be way better to at least be acquaintances, first. Or even better yet, friends. I mean, it doesn't need to be a really really close relationship or anything.
On August 15th I'm going to a wedding that will be between two people that have know each other for less than two years. I think this is a great example of a non-romantic, but very close relationship. After being in frequent contact with each other for about six months they decided to get serious and get married. At first I thought it was kind of weird they were "tying the knot" so fast. But then I accepted th fact that if two people love each other, are both responsible adult christans, and want to be together. Why wait? It worked 100 years ago. Why not now.
That is pretty cool.
I doubt it would be my first choice on how to do it, but I can see how it would work.
Oh very funny Nathan. One might figure that if I didn't even know how to SPELL "sue" I probably did not know about some obscure ancient meaning to the word. :-P
lol, but that's all I have the energy to respond to at the moment, I'm running on... hum, I don't even know how many hours of sleep. Something like two, I think.
Oh but Lucy, I think you summed it up very nicely. I doubt anyone would disagree with you.
I think perhaps we've beaten this one dead... I keep meaning to make a new post, but life. You know. :-)
Of Dating/Courtship.
Ok, ok, sorry for the wait, I had to read Sex is not the Problem (Lust is) a 10/10, I Kissed Dating Goodbye a 5/10, and Boy Meets Girl a 9/10. Read them. I have a bit of experience though I’m no expert on the matter. But here’s what I think about all this. Again, sorry I’m late.
1. Word(s). I agree with you all, words don’t matter. And way to quote Shakespeare. Call it courting, call it dating, heck, call it twitterpegaleggin’. What matters most is that we do all things for the glory of God. In the end of the day that’s all that matters.
2. Culture. We have practical instructions, like don’t commit adultery, don’t steal, and worship no other gods (including people!). I believe it doesn’t matter what culture we follow, using the concepts of scripture we can determine what is and what is not acceptable to God’s character/law. How the patriarchs conducted business in their culture was in concordance to God’s instruction for them. This meant abiding by the Mosaic Law for a long period of time. Today we still follow the same God and the same Law. So again, it’s about concepts, which makes neither dating nor arranged marriages necessarily wrong I’m pretty sure the only restriction the Word puts on marriage is that we can marry whomever we wish, they just have to be Christian too.
3. Twitterpegaleggin’. I agree Em, The problem with Christians today and courting/dating is that they do not have the right mind set about it. Joshua Harris in Sex is not the Problem (Lust is) provides an sadly insightful analogy: it is like we are trying to see how many poison pills we can take a day and notice the rotting effect it’s having on bodies. “What!? We don’t really do that do we?” uhuh, we do, we see how much of the world we can be like and still place ourselves, self-righteously, under the title “Christian”. “If your hand causes you to sin cut if off!” we are called to be radical! Think how radically different God is from us, and we have to be like him.
4. Romantics. First we need to define romantic. Dictionary.com says:
a. of, pertaining to, or of the nature of romance; characteristic or suggestive of the world of romance: a romantic adventure
b. fanciful; impractical; unrealistic: romantic ideas
c. imbued with or dominated by idealism, a desire for adventure, chivalry, etc
d. characterized by a preoccupation with love or by the idealizing of love or one's beloved
Now I consider myself one of the most romantic people I know, and I think anyone who knows me would agree. But based on this definition, romance seems like it could mislead someone into feeling things which may not exist. And some of us already know I don’t really believe in feelings, they tamper with reason, they fluctuate constantly, they are practically the definition of bias, and they are not a good source for good decision making. This also poses the question what is love? Well, “We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” -1 John 3:16. And read 1 Cor. 13 (my favorite passage). Love is not a feeling, it is an ability that must be learned and refined with every sin. So romance? I don’t think it’s necessary in a relationship at all really, it’s a gift that comes with it. And it is absolutely not required in order to truly love someone. It is one of the most wonderful things, but it’s existence before marriage must be carefully watched as to not get out of hand.
(pt 2)
5. Origins. I think courtship came first, not dating. Everything we have now started as something good but is now pursued and carried out in a sinful way. The act of “Courting”, I am most certain, came before the act of dating. This would not be hard to believe since I think we all agree that dating is much less godly way to go about relationships. The world took what God gave them, and made it their own by dowsing it in sin… good job guys.
6. Expectations. I now believe that the only expectation that should be put on a couple, when they start “twitterpegalegin” is that the man is now expected to direct the friendship in such a way that he steers it toward answering the question, “Does God mean us to marry one another?” This is a very involved and articulate process, read Boy Meets Girl by Joshua Harris for a really good exposition on how to go about this process.
7. Arrangements. I think culture does play a huge role as to how acceptable divorce is. However, the Fiddler on the Roof is an excellent example of how love really is an ability, and it really is, at it’s very core, sacrifice. Once you can do those to someone/anyone, you are capable of really, truly loving that person, be it brother, fish, or spouse. When two become one, they both sacrifice much of there freedom, will, time, habits, etc. and must love that other person to do so. And by the way, God arranged the marriage of Adam and Eve. ;)
8. Striker. “As few times as possible”. Why? I don’t like this idea. It implies that if you don’t get married the first time you date, something went wrong. If the point of dating/courting/twitterpegaleggin’ is to find out if your supposed to marry the other person, if the result is no it can be very fulfilling AND successful. And on the same note, someone can come to conclusion ‘yes’ for all the wrong reasons and whole process become a failure. God is a god of perfection and order. There is a perfect, orderly way to go about dating that can result in nothing but happiness and God-glorification. This is the ideal. The real is the hard part, the part we are privileged to experience.
In a last word, a few principles I have found and stuck by through the good times and bad are these:
Marry your best friend. – Janet Ash, my computer science teacher at community college
Love is an ability. – 2 Cor. 13
You can marry any Christian you want. – 1 Cor. 7:39
True love, as no emotions/feelings attached. – Christ’s example
Love (sacrifice for) the Lord your God first (put him before your “lover”), then love (sacrifice for) your neighbor (put their betterment before all your desires). – Truth
Imho, Danny.
meh, i see grammar errors. apologies.. i'm sure you'll figure it out tho.
ok, and before you all hack me up, let me clarify. True love still exists even when you strip away all the feelings and fluff of emotions. However, emotions and feelings are necessary to give you that original interest in someone. And feelings and emotions reflect (to some extent) on the love you have for that person. and are a brilliant gift that let you experience God's magic, mysterious, mad, miraculous, mesmerizing, map of man and matrimony. ok, last post, promise. ;)
So it sounds to me like we've all pretty much discarded the idea of doing away with relationships all together. I love that we actually came to a conclusion on this post, that never happens!
Thanks for commenting Danny! Better late than never. :-) Your thoughts are very interesting and sum up your POV very well. Seems to me the love revival is headed in a new direction these days. :-)
I would reply to a lot more, but I don't have much time. You should deff. post something like that on facebook, get it out there for everyone to see.
ah yes, the love revival, now that we know what love is, we like to focus more on what does that love look like. :) and yes, i'll rework some of this to make it stand a lone better, and will probably post something on fb. Thank you, Emily!
Wow, your thoughts on love, Danny and how it is not a feeling is something that has been really brought to my attention the last couple weeks. My pastor says that Love is not an emotion. Emotions can not be commanded, but love can be. Which sounds like that's basically what you are saying.
Yesterday at church we studied Joy, Love, and Fellowship (we're starting the book of Phillipians) and Pastor Lyon was saying how love must be built upon knowledge and discernment.
And then I was rereading I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the part that talks about how romantic love comes with the commitment, and shouldn't be the focus really made an impression on me.
yes, im a huge love advocate, mostly because i think it's so misunderstood. I think i read 1 Cor. 13 everyday for like a few weeks, because it described true, christian love. it's my favorite passage. thanks for reading :)
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